From a Tentmaker Post about Sovereignty

There is a discussion at the Tentmaker Message Board going on right now about free will vs. absolute sovereignty. Not surprisingly, it has taken two sides...as the vs. between the words free will and the words absolute sovereignty indicate. I think absolute sovereignty is misleading because most of us who believe in "free" will also believe God is absolutely sovereign. I believe, however, that he has allocated some of that sovereignty to us....as in "take dominion and subdue the earth." Total determinisn makes more sense....since in their view everything...and I do mean everything down to the tweaking of our thoughts...is predetermined. Anyway, even though I do not often post on TM, I threw my opinion into the mix and it was pretty much ignored...no it was completely ignored by those who believe in determinism. No answers to any of the issues I posed. So anyway, I am going to repost it here on my blog. Any comments, questions or observations would be very welcome.....

With a deep breath and more than a few second thoughts, I am throwing my hat into the ring and commenting on this thread. Seeker, I have read all the posts so I am not just jumping in here at the end...with no knowledge of what has been written prior to this. As Taffy can attest to...from our time together on another forum, this subject has been a source of extreme angst to me for quite a few years....and only lately....within the past year or so, have I settled it....at least until further revelation from the Lord reveals something different to me.

A bit of history...I was an agnostic atheist for most of my life...until God revealed himself to me via a mini miracle in a hospital room, with a tap on the shoulder and a whisper in my ear that clearly said, "See, I really am here." I had been dragged to church as a child with my grandmother...a Free Methodist church and I vaguely knew their doctrines. In my naivety, when I became a Christian in my early forties, I thought all Christians thought alike...and that they all believed like my grandmother's church did. Free Methodists believe in free will...and a great degree of it....and also that you can lose your salvation in a heartbeat. Imagine my surprise when I ended up in a Calvinist church and sat through a few classes that explained those famous five points...TULIP!!!

Well, I had a new computer...and a burning desire to find out the truth and I went on an internet trek to prove what seemed right to me then...free will...it was the only fair way if one put an eternal hell into the equation. And in my internet journeys I found TM....and this forum...back in 1998ish. Roy (Bukrim/REB) took me under his wing...and shortly after that and through my friendship with him....I became friends with Keith who posted as Kamar at that time, I believe. They were my mentors. (a side note.... Roy and I are still friends...and I married Keith. He moved here to the States from Ontario and we've been married for 5 1/2 year) They both believe in AS. I no longer had to put an eternal hell into the equation and at that time in my life, I desperately needed to believe in AS...and so I bought it...hook, line and sinker. I cut my UR teeth on the writings of Preston Eby...Ray Prinzing. Keith sent me a box of Ray Prinzing tapes....and for those who aren't familiar with Ray Prinzing....he is total sovereignty all the way. And I accepted it....actually, I embraced it.....for a while that is. And then the questions started to creep in....the very questions and issues that have been raised time and again in this thread and all the threads on TM that have discussed this issue for page after page after page.

This post may get long...and I know....as a rule people tend to skim over long posts....but I have a lot to say on this topic and say it I will.

No other doctrine has caused me as much personal angst as this and actually led to a several year estrangement from God. These discussions that have taken place on TM...including the ones that get heated....have taken place right in my own living room...time and time again. I could argue the total sovereignty view flawlessly...convincingly. I have heard all the ins and outs of it. Keith has probably honed a few of his most convincing arguments on me. It was THE topic for the longest time. So for years this stewed in me...the conflicting "proof texts" and the holes that can be found in both views....total sovereignty AND limited free will. John Gavazonni (a believer in AS) calls these kinds of things contrarianisms. Contrary is right. That's why it has been argued for centuries....and I am sure more than one Christian has been burned at the stake for their views on this issue. There were a few times I eyed the wood pile out back when the discussions got especially heated. But it is through hearing what we do not believe that we become more keenly aware of what we do believe so I guess our "discussions" led me to finally pick a lane and stay in it. (at least until God shows me otherwise) The lane I've picked is the limited free will side of the road. Although I will acknowledge that there are a few potholes in this lane...and that there are verses and arguments that are very convincing as far as the AS view (and really...anyone who wants to respond to this post can cite them if they choose...but I really do know most if not all of them and I have an understanding of them and how they support the AS view) In my heart I have come to the conclusion that to choose otherwise makes God out to be a liar and no matter how we skirt the issue, he is the one who whispers in the rapists/ murderers/terrorists ear.....see that little girl over there??????

I mentioned Ray Prinzing earlier in this post. Keith has all of his Letters of Truth in the bookcase downstairs. I have read most of them. One particular one I remember was a New Year's letter in which Ray stated that it was his tradition to answer a letter or question from a reader. This particular question was from a girl who had been sexually abused and the gist of it was....if God planned that for me....each and every detail....then how could I ever worship a God like that. And what did Ray say in reply? Did Ray....who is known for his saying "If it is, it's right" tell her about how it was God's plan for her good....the trimming off of the carnal flesh etc....etc? No...he talked about how man is on a leash and when we get too far God jerks us back....and does he believe that God personally whispered in the rapists ear....see that little girl over there.....NO....he did not believe that. And then he talked about the fallen nature etc. Huh???? Of course, he attributed ultimate responsibility to God (as do I, since he can always step in if he chooses....but as Tom Talbott beleives....he only steps in when the evil done is something he cannot redeem or bring some good out of) So when it comes right down to it, even one of the fathers of AS belief could not look at someone hurting and flat out say....yep....God did it. But I digress here.....and will probably continue to do so throughout this post....

Byron is a member of another board I participate on....The Beautiful Heresy....and he started a thread called "What Happens In Vegas, Stays In Vegas" which, if I recall was about this realm of time and space and how what happens here does not affect eternity. My best bud, annie, has a view that this realm (of time and space) is like a quarantine and that within this quarantine God has granted us limited free will (and I really do not want to argue semantics. By saying "free" will I know that my will is not totally free with no restraints. For instance, I realize that if I decided...on a whim..... to put my lap top down and...from this couch...leap to the moon that I could not do so. To me that is not proof that I do not have some degree of free/self will. That is just silly....but it is an argument I have heard put out there in defense of AS. When I say limited free will....my definition is.....a limited choice....and I do not mean a pseudo choice....a REAL choice.....be it whether I decide to greet my husband with a hug and a good morning when he awakens and get up from the couch and pour him a cup of coffee....or go about typing this already much too long post) But anyway...back to the quarantine thing. This realm is to learn to choose the good....to learn the difference between good and evil by experiencing it and the consequences of our choices (you know the how best to show the brilliance of a diamond is against the black velvet backdrop way of explaining evil) This is a realm that God uses to mold us into the image and likeness of his son. annie uses the term self governance and I think it is a really good term. If he controls our every thought, whim, action and interaction, do we really learn self governance? If the goal of creation was to make us into his image and likeness does predetermining everything from before the foundation of the world really accomplish that or do we remain "puppets" throughout eternity? Does "making every choice for us" or making it impossible to choose other than we do really enable us to...as the kingdom folk proclaim....to rule and reign with Christ? Would our children be fit to go out into the world if we made every choice for them? I don't think so.

Now...this quarantine thing could also work with the AS view. He sends us to this realm...this quarantine where nothing we do ultimately can escape into "eternity" in order to accomplish his purpose....the ruling and reigning thing....or training for reigning as I've also heard it called. His purpose is also to eventually make man into his image and likeness. And the curriculum is all set. Everything...and he accomplishes his purpose in as short order as possible. He wastes no pain....teaches us the lessons we need to learn in the quickest way possible. He tweaks our subconscious thoughts....he blinds us to alternatives to the choices we are preordained to make....he manages all of our interactions with each other and with ourselves. The lessons been planned to teach us everything we need to learn in the shortest time possible. It is intense but ultimately there is not one speck more pain than is absolutely necessary. I've heard it likened to a navy seal program. Okay...sounds plausible. I don't particularly like it or the thought of how much it will hurt but I could deal with that except for one thing....it makes so much of scripture a lie.

One verse mentioned earlier in this thread is a good example....where God declares the Israelites burned their own children and that it had never entered his mind that they do such a thing. Lie. If AS is true, there is no way around it but calling is what it is....a lie. Doesn't scripture proclaim that God does not lie? Now I have read Jeff Priddy....I have read L Ray Smith and I know the explanation for this....relative and absolute truths....relative and absolute views of scripture.....but I say, let's call a spade a spade....and call it what it is ....which is a flat out lie.


And what about Isaiah 66?

They have chosen their own ways,
and their souls delight in their abominations;
4 so I also will choose harsh treatment for them
and will bring upon them what they dread.
For when I called, no one answered,
when I spoke, no one listened.
They did evil in my sight
and chose what displeases me."

Does this not seem a bit disingenuous? They have chosen their own ways? If AS is true...they really had no choice? Yes?? They chose what displeased him? Ahhhh....if it was all predetermined then how could it displease him? If it was all part of the plan then by their disobedience they were actually doing the will of God....so is he telling the truth when he said he is displeased. Again...call a spade a spade....perhaps a white lie....but a lie none the less....and there are other examples....plenty of them....which are all explained away with a wave of the relative/absolute wand of Bible interpretation.

And what about where God tells Adam and later repeated at least in part to Noah to "take dominion" and "subdue the earth?" How disingenuous is that if his every action and reaction is either instigated or thwarted by God's predetermined plan? God has in fact "tied the hands of man" all the while leading him to believe "taking dominion" is his God given responsibility??

And what about the verses where God says he repented / changed his mind? I have a list on my computer that contains quite a few of them....and to be fair the article contains verses that seem to say the opposite. The most commonly given explanation of these "he changed his mind verses is "anthropomorphic language." When the Bible says "God changed His mind," it didn't really mean that God changed His mind but that God is using human words to explain something we can't understand because we are human and cannot comprehend with our limited minds what actually happened. To me, it makes these verses into lies. There are many more examples...and I know there are verses that contradict my understanding of all of this...and so we are right back where we started from. The biggest contrarianism one can come up with. So ultimately, we have to pick a lane and stay in it.... at least until the navigator says...."TURN HERE!!!"

Once on TM, in a thread on free will /sovereignty someone said that if they had to choose between a God of absolute sovereignty and a God of absolute integrity they would opt for the integrity. I, too, have got to opt for the view of God that I think is most accurately displayed in the exact image and likeness of the invisible God....seen in the face of Jesus. Four gospels...four chances to get a picture of the invisible God....how he thinks, how he acts, his compassion, his desire to alleviate suffering. Again....I acknowledge that this view is not without its "holes". I could tell you exactly where they are gleaned from hours of discussions with Keith and reading and pondering and wondering and agonizing and cursing God for the way he set things up (when AS was something I could not quite let go of) but in the end when all is said and done, I have got to go with the belief that to me is most compatible with the God who is all light and love and in whom there is no darkness at all.....

Cindi.....