My ponderings on atonement

The following is a post written on 12/29/06

I see you have been pondering. Thank you for your long, heartfelt post....and there are aspects of what you say that I agree with. I've taken some snippets from here and there in your post...sort of out of context....hope you don't mind.

Quote from other poster:
Christ being the perfect sacrifice would ring true to the heart of Israel.
It issued in the beginning of the new covenant for Israel, in which their sins and iniquities would be remembered no more.
One might argue that this is the same line of thinking that would lead most of Christianity to being OK with God tormenting people in hell for eternity, however the difference is eternal torment is not in scripture anywhere, we all accept this , but Christ's life being viewed and taught as a sacrifice, our sins being laid on him, Our being healed by his strips is biblical and is taught in the holy book of our Faith both by the disciples and in part by Paul who's Gospel was for the Gentiles.
In no way am I discrediting or trying to debunk all of the different views of the atonement, but I think to dismiss the paradigm that God did not have his son crushed for our iniquities, is to dismiss certain scriptures completely, no matter how you explain them away.

Okay....I can see this since Israel was so immersed in their sacrificial systems there was no way God could lead them out of it without convincing them that it was indeed finished and the final perfect sacrifice had been made. But I believe that God, in Christ did this FOR Israel so that they could move on and enter into the new covenant. The "old man" had to die for the "new man" to come to life. I cannot see it as a requirement that had to be fulfilled before God could have a relationship with them/us. I say this because I do not see that Jesus made any stipulations about any kind of payment being made, requirement being fulfilled before he tells us to forgive 70 x 7. So would God require more forgiveness from us than he requires of himself. I also think that God was always conciliatory toward man. It was man's hard heart...filled with guilt and the need for justice that needed to be softened in order for man to be conciliated to God ....which equals reconciliation. It makes a great deal of sense to me that the mandates laid out for sacrifices in the OT were to LIMIT rather than initiate. God knew the lengths man would go to in his efforts to appease his guilt. If clear boundaries were not laid down then the lengths to which humanity will go is deplorable.

I do know the scriptures you are talking about...and some of the explanations do seem a bit....well just not thorough enough....so I will have to put that on the shelf for a while (although I know that AP Adams deals with a lot of that in his writings....including the terminology of the atonement. I have not read them in depth, though and have mostly just skimmed over them) There are other scriptures, though, that are more in line with the character and nature of God as I see it. I am talking about the scriptures that declare he does not want sacrifice. I hope you don't mind if I do a bit of "proof texting" and copy and paste the scriptures below....

Mercy not Sacrifice
What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says the LORD; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of goats. When you come to appear before me, who asked this from your hand? Trample my courts no more; bringing offerings is futile; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and sabbath and calling of convocation-- I cannot endure solemn assemblies with iniquity. Your new moons and your appointed festivals my soul hates; they have become a burden to me, I am weary of bearing them. When you stretch out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood. Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, rescue the oppressed, defend the orphan, plead for the widow. -- Isaiah 1:11-17

For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this command I gave them, "Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people; and walk only in the way that I command you, so that it may be well with you." -- Jer. 7:22-23

For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings. -- Hosea 6:6

I hate, I despise your festivals, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies. Even though you offer me your burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them; and the offerings of well-being of your fatted animals I will not look upon. Take away from me the noise of your songs; I will not listen to the melody of your harps. But let justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream. -- Amos 5:21-24

Hear what the LORD says: Rise, plead your case before the mountains, and let the hills hear your voice. Hear, you mountains, the controversy of the LORD, and you enduring foundations of the earth; for the LORD has a controversy with his people, and he will contend with Israel. "O my people, what have I done to you? In what have I wearied you? Answer me! For I brought you up from the land of Egypt, and redeemed you from the house of slavery; and I sent before you Moses, Aaron, and Miriam. "With what shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?" He has told you, O mortal, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God? -- Micah 6:1-4, 6-8

[Jesus said,] "Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have come to call not the righteous but sinners." -- Matthew 9:13
[Jesus said,] "But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless." -- Matthew 12:7


Somehow any theories that God required sacrifice....be it the blood of rams and goats or the blood of a spotless lamb (Jesus) have got to take these verses into account as well. And since I am on a proof texting frenzy here....what about the verses that condemn the children of Israel for sacrificing their children to Molech? Granted, they sacrificed them to another god.....but I have got to believe that it was the sacrifice of the child and not the mistaken loyalty to a false god that the real God detested. I just cannot make sense of the thought that in order to fulfill the Law that God would do to his son what he forbade the Israelites to do.....sacrifice their children. I know it gets mixed up with the God was in Christ line of thinking. I am not smart enough to figure it out and as you mentioned in your post, it is doubtful we will ever figure it out while looking through hazy glass. I am not discounting your view or your revelation....and I know many, many universalists see it the way you are leaning toward. To borrow a phrase from annie, though, it just does not pass the "gut check". for me personally. So I am including the verses about child sacrifice below.....there are more but these seem to be the most to the point. Truthfully, I find some truth in all the versions of the atonement that I have read....more in some than in others.....
Although I do not agree with all the points you made, I do agree with much of what you said....and willingly acknowledge that I may be dead wrong. I'm glad you are back. I have been waiting for all of you guys to come back. My Christmas was quiet and spent mostly at home.....just Keith and I.

Cindi.......

Jer 32.35: They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.
· Jer 7.31: They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire -- something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.
Deut 12.31: You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshipping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
Deut 18.10: "`Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.
Ezek 23.37: for they have committed adultery and blood is on their hands. They committed adultery with their idols; they even sacrificed their children, whom they bore to me, as food for them.
Jer 19.4: For they have forsaken me and made this a place of foreign gods; they have burned sacrifices in it to gods that neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah ever knew, and they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent. 5 They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal -- something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind. .