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In the comments section, Jack asked me what I thought about our "sojourner status" on this earth. The age old, why are we here? A question theologians and philosophers, Christians and Atheists, Buddhist, Hindu, Islamic, New Age...Fundie....have been asking themselves for eons. What is the purpose of our life on this earth? Well... the answer that made the most sense to me came from by friend annie...a lifelong Christian Universalist...my best online buddy. She believes this life is a quarantine...a realm that cannot affect eternity. Following is an email I saved from when she and I first started to write back and forth.
here's my synopsis. i believe we're here because God wanted children to love. can you imagine having all of that love pent up inside with no focus? think of the longing of women who are infertile and multiply that to the nth degree... and i believe that God wanted children, as he states, "in his own image" (not "adopted" ones some folks interpret adoption). you know i believe in pre-existence. but, i believe that in our previous state, there was no true choosing. in order for us to have true self-governance, to truly be of the same substance, nature, will - we had to go through this life experience, this time of separation - near enough that we're never forsaken, but with enough distance between us that we can actually choose - kind of like getting far enough away from the magnetic pull of the earth that one is no longer bound by the law of gravity. in this endeavor, we are co-laborers with God. i believe that each of us agreed to come here and be who we are to help fulfill God's plan and purpose (i hope i can remember that next time i feel like complaining - LOL). however, i agree with gary sigler that part of "the fall" is sort of an amnesia - we don't know who we are. yet, God left a "seed" within us that is reawakened by the Holy Spirit. when we have that "metanoia" as mike would say, we realize that all this time we thought that we were ugly ducklings, but now we realize that we were swans all along. i do believe that "the fall" was purposed. i don't believe that adam was the first person created. if you read the genesis acct, man, as "male and female" (and i believe they were the embodiment of both) was created on the 6th day. then, God rested on the 7th. i believe that adam was created after that - call it the 8th day if you want to. a careful read of the passage shows that God didn't say "there are no men on the earth", but "there was no man to tend the garden". i believe that the 6th day folks were nomadic. adam was created for a specific purpose - to be more of an agricultural sort, tend the garden and "have dominion" over the animals. i believe that part of the whole "fall and redemption" thing is about God being All in all. in Jesus, God was able to experience all of the frailties that we possess. how is One who is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent supposed to experience any sort of limitations? anyways, back to the "free will" thing. if God was indeed going to grant us free will, it is necessary that we have a safe place to fail - enter our realm of time and space. as i've mentioned before, i see it as a sort of quarantine. God created us as finite beings so that a mistake made by us in our choosing didn't allow sin to enter in perpetuity - can you imagine God's grief at creating children who were sinful AND immortal? i believe he would have had no choice but to destroy such a one. but, given his plan in this earthly realm, our sin condition is only temporary, not fatal. as i see it, all of this time, God is continuing the creation process (perhaps peter is speaking literally when he says that with God a day is as a thousand years) in the same way that when you were little and your sibling had chicken pox, your mom makes you kiss them or something so you can "have it and get it over with". we don't have a fatal disease (sin). we have a temporary disease with a permanent solution (Jesus) and once we're all reconciled, the "quarantine" will no longer be necessary. even if sin still exists "somewhere out there", how do you re-infect folks who are immune, holy as God is holy? i think God's plan is pure genius!
5 comments:
Hi Cindy, I enjoyed reading your post this morn, containing the thoughts of your friend Annie. She has some wonderful thoughts however I saw a couple statements that seem to contradict each other.
Annie says, " you know i believe in pre-existence. but, i believe that in our previous state, there was no true choosing."
Later she says, "i believe that each of us agreed to come here and be who we are to help fulfill God's plan and purpose (i hope i can remember that next time i feel like complaining -"
In the first sentence quoted above Annie is saying, although somewhat vaguely there is no choice and in the second there is choice made in the agreement.
I concur with her second statement and after much prayer and contemplation I believe the Lord has revealed to me that before the foundations were laid we as part of the "Elohim" made a choice. I shared on a forum this week how I see it and I quote my statement below. My statement was in responce to a deeply touching message by a woman that was sharing how she understood and accepted the recent death of her daughter in a car accident.
This mother's statement:
" I actually believe that we were shown what our life would be about here on earth, and we might have had some choosing as to what we would come here to accomplish, and how we would end up leaving this earthly plane, but we just don't remember it once we were lowered into the earth."
This was my response after sharing with this dear woman, that she seemed to be confirming that which the Holy Spirit had been showing me of late was.
"As part of the Elohim I do believe we may have chosen our earthly paths.
In this life I believe we move according to that which was chosen."
Also Cindi, to emphasize that I too contemplate and pray about the "purpose of evil and suffering in this world" please allow me to quote part of an E-mail I sent to a friend yesterday.
"Whew, I have sure been thinking about those Amelakite babies that were dashed on the rocks. I believe God is showing me how our pre-existence, His sovereignty, and our life on earth all play together. I believe every one is actually some how a "martyr" on this earth. Martyr means "witness" and everyone on earth plays their roles given, that the corporate body of Christ might be formed. This understanding enables us to love our enemies and even kiss the hands that nail us to the cross. We need adversaries to teach us and maybe these that take the adversarial positions are the "last that will be first" as spoken of in the Bible."
Cindi, I used to be one that scoffed at those trying to span free will with God's sovereignty. Then about a year ago God revealed to me that our "free will" is but an illusion. We think we make choices but we always make the choice that was ordained for us by God.
Anyway here are two links to a couple of old posts on my blog where I share how I came to see "God's sovereignty" and the illusion of our "free will."
The first link is to an account of a vision God gave me and it personally settled the "free will/sovereignty dilemma.
vision:
http://jack-sonshine.blogspot.com/2007/05/come-up-hither.html
the illusion:
http://jack-sonshine.blogspot.com/2007/05/illusion-of-free-will.html
God bless and I really loved how Annie ended her message and I can truly sound an enthusiastic "Amen!"
Annie said:
"i think God's plan is pure genius!"
Jack said
Annie says, " you know i believe in pre-existence. but, i believe that in our previous state, there was no true choosing."
Later she says, "i believe that each of us agreed to come here and be who we are to help fulfill God's plan and purpose (i hope i can remember that next time i feel like complaining -"
Cindi says:
It was a shoot from the hip email she wrote to me probably three years ago (although her view has pretty much remained the same) The point she is making is that God's goodness would so influence our decisions unless we were distanced from him somewhat because in his presence we would always choose good. I see that you believe we had some say in this existence and our role here. Do you believe we had free will when we chose to come here? And will we have free will in the next realm that some like to call ruling and reigning with Christ ...which is the gist of the sonship message?
I'm not sure if you've read the post I wrote for Keith...to prove to him that I understand sovereignty. It was written a while back under the category "free will." He's told me that he knows if I understood it, I would believe it. Hey...I did believe it...until I couldn't anymore. He really liked the part where I defended his view and actually posted it on kept's message board. (Have I said this before?) So I do understand it...and could perhaps accept it...but then what about so many, many verses in scripture that are at best manipulative and at worst flat out lies? I am thinking too of the accountability verses and the major rants at the Children of Israel for doing what they had absolutely no choice but to do?? There are lots of verses that have to be ignored (which is why I believe we all pick and choose which verses to ignore) and yes, I've read the relative/ absolute explanation of that...ala L.Ray Smith and Jeff Priddy.
And I do read...and am often blessed by some who believe in total determinism. But truly...I did believe it. I needed to believe it during a particularly tumultuous time in my life....but God took it away from me....in a long, drawn out wrestling match...and a two or three year estrangement when he and I were barely speaking and I was going back and forth...back and forth. It is truly what John Gavozzani calls a contrarianism. An antithesis. Haven't people been burned at the stake for their differing opinions on this topic? But again....your comments are always welcome....and I've enjoyed our exchanges. My heart goes out to the women who lost her daughter. I truly don't know how I would ever live through that.
Cindi.....
Cindi said:
"I see that you believe we had some say in this existence and our role here. Do you believe we had free will when we chose to come here? And will we have free will in the next realm that some like to call ruling and reigning with Christ ...which is the gist of the sonship message?"
Jack:
Cindi, I simplified my idea of pre-existent choice in my previous comment but allow me to share this thought or better said, question regarding "choice" in the Eternal realm. What does a choice look like when we are part of the eternal Godhead and know all things at once? (head scratch)
It is thoughts like that which cause me to fall as prostrate before Him knowing it is all too great for me to ever comprehend.
I could go on and on and share how I see things contrary but allow me to just say that I approach God much differently than most I know. Most of what I come to see as far as Truth is born out of my practice of contemplative emptying prayer where the intellect is bypassed rather than utilized. There is a Divine Knowing that is produced by such and paradoxically it is brought about by placing one's soul before God in a unknowing state where knowledge and experience hold no worth.
I learned to prayer with no outside influences but only at the prodding and direction of Christ. Personally, I know of no one that prays as I have been taught and am so appreciative that after I was taught the Holy Spirit introduced me to the old mystics and Quietist of centuries past for much confirmation with regard to my method of knowing God. These mystics all eschewed the intellectual approach to God but instead understood the need to approach God as a simple child. Amazing how that works.
I see a great deal of vain intellectual pursuit of God with those that are exploring and promoting these ideas of separating the "God's of the OT and NT" and I think that is a futile path.
In closing let me share a quote that changed my life some years ago. I have found that almost all doctrines and paths if they be true always tend toward simplicity. How simple is this which Madame Guyon penned years ago. She said:
"There are but two truths in the Kingdom; the "all" and the "nothing" and everything else is a falsity."
I believe God ordained and gave us an an old covenant order and a new covenant fulfilment and then there is the counterfeit of each which is born of the restless carnal mind. Truly God gives us all that is sufficient for the day and in that we can rest.
Sola gratia,
Jack
PS. Cindi, I know my way of communicating my thoughts is sometimes viewed as too blunt but please if you see it this way know I mean no offence.
Jack said:
PS. Cindi, I know my way of communicating my thoughts is sometimes viewed as too blunt but please if you see it this way know I mean no offence.
Cindi says:
You've been quite eloquent. Thanks for today's comments....
I really love the way Annie sees things. Her vision is so wide-ranging, it makes my toes tingle :)
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