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Another reason I am convinced that God is the father of all mankind is because I don't believe that God created the world out of nothing (creatio ex nillo) as is commonly taught....but rather He created out of himself. ("creatio ex deo," which is creation out of the being of God.) Where else would he get the material to create us? And if he created us from himself, then how could we not be his offspring....his children? And where does the belief that we are somehow the children of the devil come into play? Gary Sigler sums in up in a transcribed sermon called "What About Deception?"
In the very beginning, we were created out of the very substance of God. Created is really not a good word for us. In Genesis 1:27 it says “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. “ The word created here does not mean to make something out of nothing. It means to cut down. It is the word (baw-raw) In other words, we are a chip off the old block. That is why it takes all of us to be the fullness of God because we are just a chip off the old block. When you understand that all that fullness is in you, you can begin to see humanity through the eyes of the spirit.
He goes on to explain in more detail:
I like Stacy Wood's explanation. Stacy says it this way: “You know, the ocean is vast like God. And you can take a cup of water out of the ocean. And in that cup you have all that the ocean is. You have all of its substance. You have the chemicals. You have the elements. Everything of the ocean is in that cup, but that cup with the substance in that cup is not all of the ocean.” That is all we are saying today. We are not saying that as an individual we are the almighty El Elyon God who has created the universe. That is not what we are saying. What we are saying is, we are God in the sense that every thing that He is, His very substance, His life, His nature, His character, everything that He is, is now emanating from our being. We are beginning to see with the eyes of the Spirit of God, rather than from a human, carnal understanding of God.
We are his very substance....we are his offspring. We are his children and he is our Dad....more on "My Dad, God" in my next post.
10 comments:
I have long believed that Yahshuah came to point us to the Father, but through the ages we have left father-centered-ness and become Christ centered. Yahshuah was the door but instead of walking through the door we have become door-centered.
"Door, door we adore you door."
BTW I just got a copy of the Nonviolent Atonement by J. Denny Weaver Eerdman's Pub. He says the idea of the atonement is rooted in violence and has given Christians the false notion that since their sins are forgiven they can take the sword and engage in slavery and misogyny and to use violence to promote justice is not only right but it is godly behavior.
Happy New Year
Robert
Robert, have you visited the "Preaching Peace" website? They've held nonviolent atonement conferences for the past several years. I have the DVD's from the 2006 conference. I was there this morning and noticed that they have four online audio messages from the 2007 conference. Quite good actually. Here's the link....
http://www.preachingpeace.org/NVAStore.html
It is an interesting site that focuses on peace churches and Girardian theory with essays and their take on the lectionary readings, a blog etc....
Cindi...
Thanks Cindi,
I'll check out the Preaching Peace Website. I was a Mennonite minister for several years but left because I was troubled by their atonement teaching and trinitarian doctrine. I came to them out of Catholicism because of their Peace Preaching.
Edgar Jones has a site http://www.voiceofjesus.org/
that helped refocus me on the words of Jesus only.
Peace and love
Robert
I visited the site briefly and will bookmark it to go back. Very interesting that you were a Mennonite minister. From my limited reading of Mennonite literature, I thought they were more along the lines of Christus Victor as far as the atonement. I am pretty sure J. Denny Weaver is a Mennonite. I watched the DVD of his presentation at the Atonement conference of 2006. He mainly read from his online article (by the same name I think)and the first part of his talk was a bit dry and stiff sounding. The last half of his talk was a question and answer period which I did enjoy because he was ad libbing and not reading. What is your view of the atonement? I realize no one single theory wraps it up in a neat little box, but I do lean toward the christus victor way of looking at it (have you been to the sharktacos site and read the indepth essay called Christus Victor vs Penal Substitution?) but I definitely believe that there are big pieces of the puzzle explained by Girard's theory that the atonement was to expose the scapegoat mechanism and mimetic rivalry in human beings. What do you think?
Do you have a website or a blog?
Cindi......
Hi Cindi,
I did visit the Preaching Peace Org. Thank you for telling me about them. I really enjoyed Greg Boyd's presentation.
I will visit the sharktacos site.
Yes my site is robertroberg.com you can read my article The Atonement Makes me Groan.
I call myself a One-viner because I only draw my doctrine from Yahshuah as the one vine.
By that I mean I only form my theology from the "red letter" words in the four gospels. It's liberating. Yahshuah ended slavery (Paul reinstituted it), he exlated women (Paul put them back in their place). He rejected sacrifices, ended all rituals, and overthrew submission to all world authorities. He said the kingdom would be ripped from Israel and given to another ethnos. (Paul said "Has God cast off Israel? God forbid). He never used the word Grace and did not use faith the way our modern preachers use it. He did not promise his followers prosperity, but hardships and persecutions.
He certainly did not identify himself as a lamb, or a lion. He said he was a shepherd, a kalos (faithful) shepherd not a good one. Only God is good and he never identified himself as God.
The more you soak in his red letter words the more clear it becomes that what passes for Christianity today is Mihtraism wrapped in the robes of Greek Philosophers.
Peace to you Cindi
Robert
Hi,
I started Derek Flood's essay on Christus Victor and soon ran out of gas. I'll have to take more time with it.
It was actually through you Cindi that I learned of Rene Girard and have begun reading him. He has a great article on Mythology pointing out that the myths all blame the victim and perpetuate the belief that killing a scapegoat brings temporary peace. He says the Bible turns this on it's head proclaiming the innocence of the victim and exposes the lie that the killing of scapegoats leads to peace.
J. Denny Weaver is indeed a Mennonite. I have been reading him and he hopes to supplant Christus Victor with "Narrative Christus Victor". He says the story of God intervening in History is about the call to nonviolence.
"It is a reading shaped by the explicit claim that the rejection of violence is intrinsic to the narrative of Jesus."
Weaver says we must reject Anselm's view that violence is the solution to the cosmic problem
Cindi I rejected all atonement theories when I read
Yahshuah said God does not want sacrifice but mercy.
Yahshuah rejected being labeled a lamb and called himself a shepherd. The atonement ritual involved goats. What John the Batizer said was
"behold the goat who takes away the sins of the world."
Yahshuah was certainly not a goat. He said the goats were going into the fire.
Yahshuah never referred to himself as a sacrifice or ever used the word atonement.
He said he was a ransom.
Edgar Jones says ransom and sacrifice are opposites. In a sacrifice a guilty party offers God a gift to remove his sins. In a ransom an innocent party pays a guilty party (a kidnapper) money to release an innocent victim.
In Sacrifice theology we are saved by Yahshuah's blood.
In Ransom theology we are released as soon as Yahshuah delivers the goods (himself) to the captor (Azazel). It's a live prisoner exchange.
Just some thoughts to ponder.
Peace
Robert
Hi Robert...
I appreciate your very well thought out comments here on my blog. Thank you. I visited your site tonight and was quite impressed. Actually, as I type this I am listening to your song "Whatever You Do To Another" I really like its folky sound...and the lyrics too. He was in prison with Peter, He felt the whips hit St. Paul, bled when they stoned Steven, and he knows when each sparrow falls.
I read the article you mentioned on your website. Not sure I agree with everything in it...but really liked the following sentiment:
So I insist Yahshuah did not die to appease an angry God, but he lived to reveal to us a loving Father who longed to birth us into his family and give us a kingdom of love. I have long struggled with the idea taught to me that Yah was loving, but he was so "just" that he could never freely pardon and show mercy to us. And yet the message of Yah to us is to forgive and show mercy. How could he ask that of us, if he was incapable of modeling it for us? I now believe that I was taught a false view of Yah further compounded by faulty translations.
Yahshuah's entire life was about mercy and not sacrifice and propitiation.
"For I desire mercy, and not sacrifice" (Hosea 6:6)
Yes...his entire life was about mercy and I have often said that perhaps the reason there are FOUR gospels that tell virtully the same story, is in part so we get it. So we see love in action...mercy in thought, word and deed. More and more I come to the uncomfortable conclusion that we are not to take up the sword against another. I liked Greg Boyd's presentation too. He has a blog and recently wrote several posts you might be interested in:
Lessons On the Nonviolent Atonement (which talks a bit about his participation in the atonement conference)
http://gregboyd.blogspot.com/2007/10/hi-folks-crazy-last-9-days-for-me-last.html
And also "Was the Christian Security Guard a Hero?" which is about the recent shooting and the Christian security guard who shot the perpetrator and Boyd's views on the followers of Jesus not taking up the sword....period. It is at
http://gregboyd.blogspot.com/2007/12/was-christian-security-guard-hero.html
Derek's essay is long...and I read it several years ago when I first started to really research the atonement.
On The Beautiful Heresy message board, we did a book study on Rene Girard's book "I See Satan Fall Like Lightening" There are summaries of all the chapters and comments from all of us.
Although I don't think Girard's theory is the whole explanation of the atonement etc., I think that it provides a lot of understanding of what motivates the heart of man.
Cindi......
Hi Cindi,
you wrote:
"More and more I come to the uncomfortable conclusion that we are not to take up the sword against another."
When Father prunes us, it is always uncomfortable, but it leads to more fruit.
Thanks for the links to Greg Boyd. He is far kinder than I in assessing the security guard. I've always said only cowards carry weapons so I cannot call her a hero.
I also believe like attracts, so the minute you arm yourself, you attract armed crazies.
I found the Beautiful Heresy website, but could not find the Girard discussion.
I did find your post about leaven.
Here are some thoughts and my translation:
Father’s Kingdom is like lump of starter dough, which a lady baker took, and mixed in a very large bowl with water, eggs and flour (126 cups), until the flour mix became a large lump of dough.
This parable is much like the Mustard Parable. Notice the growth of the kingdom does not fill the whole earth, but in an invisible way expands -the Little Flock.
Starter dough has yeast, or leaven in it. Leaven throughout the scriptures stands for sin, corruption, and false teachings (the leaven of Herod).
The little flock will be buffeted from all sides by false doctrines. Just as the flour reacts to the leavened starter dough and expands, the true Gospel and the true followers of Yahshuah are formed as they react to the assaults of the atheists and religionists, especially the Mihtraic Christians and their anti-Yah, anti-Christ gospel of the cruel blood thirsty-father who sacrificed his human/divine son war-god, and unites with them through cannibal/vampirism.
I think that Girard is correct when he sees the gospel as fermenting further conflict (I would use the word vomenting as in stirring things up). Yahshuah's message is not shalom and prosperity, but non-violent, merciful, peaceful, loving warfare. It is to have the affect of Samson bringing down the roof. Those who walk the walk can only expect persecution and being nailed in a tree.
Peace
Robert
Robert said:
as they react to the assaults of the atheists and religionists, especially the Mihtraic Christians and their anti-Yah, anti-Christ gospel of the cruel blood thirsty-father who sacrificed his human/divine son war-god, and unites with them through cannibal/vampirism.
Wow...that is laying it right on the line isn't it? But true. Let's not sugar coat it. Let's call a spade, a spade.
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying about the leaven. Are you saying that you think leaven is a bad thing...which of course it is when Jesus warns of the leaven of the Pharisees and Saducees...but what of the leaven of the kingdom. To me it seems it can be a good thing or a bad thing and that leaven is something that influences and infiltrates our beliefs...our behavior...our hearts slowly. It takes a while to spread to the entire loaf.
I think Girard (and many who adopt his philosophy) believe that as the gospel opens our eyes to mimetic rivalry and scapegoating, it will not work any longer to bring the temporary peace the sacrifice of an innocent victim brings the community/group. I think they see a real danger that violence will overtake humanity as our violence escalates into bigger and bigger conflicts before we learn to somehow "follow Jesus" and adapt his nonviolent, noncoveting, merciful, peaceful ways....through the enablement amd guidance of the Holy Spirit.
I think, perhaps, on the Beautiful Heresy you have to be a member to see the book studies and several other topic areas. I forgot that they made certain areas private. Sign up is easy...and of course, free. They are doing a very slow going study right now on Francis Collins' book, The Language of God. It is a universalist board...thus the reference to "heresy" since so much of Chistiandom believes UR is one of the most dangerous heresies.
I am sure you know from reading here on my blog that I am a universalist...that I believe every knee will eventually bow and God will reconcile his entire creation back to himself. Do you believe anything along those lines?
Cindi....
Hi Cindi,
I can't find any place in Scripture where leaven isn't evil. Prior to the Passover feast all leaven is purged from Jewish houses.
To think that the true gospel will permeate the fabric of the world strikes me as romantic wishful thinking. In two thousand years of preaching all I see is oceans of leaven and not enough bread to feed a village.
I don't hear Yahshuah teaching world wide revival or winning the world to Christ.
Mat 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
The believers are compared to a mustard bush attacked by birds, a small, scattered, persecuted flock, a lone lily among the thorns. A lump of dough beset with leaven.
Yahshuah did not expect to find cchurches on every corner, but wondered if he would find any faithful ones on the earth when he returned.
On Universalism, that is certainly what Paul taught, but when I go only to the one vine by which I base my doctrine, I hear Yahshuah teaching the opposite.
Few are chosen, many will be cast into outer darkness where there will be weeping a snarling and gnashing of teeth. Depart from me ye workers of iniquity. The wedding door is shut and half of the wedding guests are outside begging in vain to get in.
In the parable of the unmerciful servant he is cast into to prison an the torturer, but there is a hint that after he has paid his debt he will be released. He owed a couple of million dollars so it sounds like he will die in prison before he pays off the debt.
My understanding is that the unjust will suffer some torment for the torment they caused others and then go into oblivion. So I do not believe in eternal torment.
Can Yah in his great love and Mercy bring them at a later date to be with him? He certainly can, I even hope he will, but I cannot find that idea anywhere in the words of our master.
The problem with teaching universalism IMHO is that it weakens me in times of temptation. It whispers in my ear in a seductive voice: "Go ahead, you know father will understand and still take you in."
It also negates the work of Yahshuah. If the loving father is bringing everyone to his home, we don't need Yahshuah.
It kills evangelism. There is no need to go into the world preaching repentance and forgiveness of sins if we are all on the same train headed to the same destination.
It destroys the Gospel because as the say in India "All paths lead to the same mountain top." It makes Yahshuah just another sage.
Honestly I hope Universalism is true, but I cannot see it in Yahshuah's teachings anywhere.
Peace
Robert
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